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Good Catholic Girls and 18 Million Cracks

I can’t claim to be good or Catholic, but writer Angela Bonavoglia can. We spoke about politics and the church (oh boy), and the presidential election and feminism.

My Texan father’s family is lapsed Southern Baptist, and my Dad was a wannabe Jew. My mother was a German-born Jew who fled her home with great causalities during Hitler’s reign. So, I’ve been interested in the collision of culture and the events that carry us to the next mini-mart or town or preferably transformation. I grew up wearing the classic uniform of a little plaid skirt and oxford shoes to school everyday, so I can relate to the photograph on the cover of Bonavoglia’s book, Good Catholic Girls: How Women Are Leading The Fight To Change The Church.

Angela and I sat next to each other at Passover this year, and Pope Benedict XVI (formerly known as Joseph Alois Ratzinger) was visiting the U.S. for the first time. I had interviewed Angela about her book when it first came out, and I find myself returning to it as I struggle with the hideous head of sexism and our ever-present Puritan foundation that the U.S. still rests on.

Copyright, Brooklyn College History Dept, 1997.


I’m very excited about Barack Obama’s historic nomination and am relieved at the possibility for the U.S. to look better to the rest of the world, more citizens involved and engaging in a hopeful election year with a renewed dialogue about the goals of the Democracy in the United States. But it was the attacks on Hillary Clinton and the impossible bind that I witnessed her struggling with that upset me and has me reflecting on the ways that I have softened my voice... My almost 10-year-old nieces thriving powerfully in their lives and the outlaw, good-bad girl, screamin' ladies who do and have put themselves on the line to make the world a better place for all of us.

Please go to Trailer Talk to listen to our complete conversation.

Bonavoglia: The place of women in the church is crucial to how we look at the church and what the future is going to look like. And the church, I feel, in two ways has closed women out. One of them is that it has closed women out of the public sphere of the church by forbidding ordination, and the other, that it has usurped women’s consciences and moral authority by these sexual teachings that don’t give women the power to make their own sexual choices. That hat has very great consequences for women’s actual physical lives. I mean, if you forbid condoms to prevent the spread of AIDS, and women are primary victims of becoming infected with HIV, then those policies are not just intellectual exercises; they’re having serious consequences for women’s lives and health.

And why do you think the focus ends up being on that instead of war in the world and nuclear proliferation and homelessness? What do you think is happening within the structure of the church that attention, in a sense, gets diverted from these other very vital issues?
That’s a really good question. I think it’s a really important question. The church has this “seamless garment” thinking in terms of life issues, and there are all those issues you mentioned, like war and capital punishment, that the church should be on the side of life and all those issues. However, abortion is the only issue where the church doesn’t use dialogue, persuasion, teaching and all those other methods to get its point across. Abortion is the only thing for which you will be turned away from the altar, where you’re going to be told if you’re a politician who supports a woman’s choice, you’re not going to be able to receive communion. This is the one place where there’s no mitigating circumstance, one of these sexual teachings where there’s no mitigating circumstance. And I have to think that has to do with the fact that it only affects women.

If the Catholic church came out and said, “Anybody who supports a preemptive strike cannot have communion,” or “Anybody who supports capital punishment cannot have communion,” and you’re committing the greatest sin possible, people would say, “That’s really too simplistic. We have to have circumstances under which these things can be done or not done.” So, I think it’s because they can get away with it because it only affects women’s lives. It is this church led by all these men who are making this decision that affects only women’s lives.

So, in a way, they’re deriving some of their moral voice and moral authority now by how well they can dictate women’s behavior and family life, even though they don’t have anything directly to do with family life.


Is Mary contemplating the glass ceiling?

31 Comments

I couldn't ever decide what

intrigued me more about organized religion; each religion interpreting the Bible to suit its own agenda and 'moral code' or the compelling need for each to enforce its interpretation upon others.

I saw a lot of those cracks from a young age and couldn't wait to hang up my plaid uniform. Although I vowed to never look back, I can't say that I haven't made a brief appearance or two in later years with hopes of seeing some sort of change...

******
"Change is created by those whose imaginations are bigger than their circumstances." Unknown

Lol... This is a joke from

Lol... This is a joke from an old legendary greek porn film:

A man is in Lesbos island and flirts with two girls. He says "hey girls, are you local?" and they say "yes". "So, you are lesbians, right?" and they giggle and say "no". "then, prove it!" he says!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
And if my present deeds are foolish in thy sight, it may be that a foolish judge arraigns my folly.

Hi Rovermom "But the true

Hi Rovermom
"But the true Lesbians of the Isle of Lesbos have that right to seek a new alternative for the current situation."

but the fact is that some inhabitants of the island want to forbidd to gay women the right to use the term "lesbian" pretendind it is harmfull for them to be assimilated with homosexuals ! They are homophobes in this way...

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The Power of Language

Are there any linguists out there? You bring up important points. I'm interested to imagine another name for Sapphic loving "lesbians" and the origins of the usage of the name lesbian. Is it a difference between upper and lower case to differentiate between the Greek resident of from the gay description? One's identity is so personal and where one comes from critical to our relationship between a personal and political expression so I understand why the Greek Lesbians are debating the word usage. Interesting, thanks for bringing this up.

True, and I understand that

True, and I understand that - but the inhabitants are really the lesbians...kind of like Americans....unless, the people of that isle have been calling themselves something completely different for hundreds of years. Kind of like people from the Netherlands call themselves 'Dutch'.

It'd be like Sappho really coming from Puerto Rico, and we decided to call the homosexual female Puetro Rican. Does that make sense?

Homophobed or not, I think they do have a point. The name can imply and confuse meanings, and mean that the island is full of homosexual females. Even humor takes this image and split meaning on.

If we took a name, that belonged to someone else, and decided to assimilate a meaning to it - that they did not want to be assimilated to, they have that right to contest it - it's based off their name, that they own.

I own my own name - or at least I hope I still do - and someone coming up and assimilating a meaning to it, without my permission, and me with it, that I did not like, or relate to - it'd tick me off.

rovermom :)

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but they coul be on the

but they could be on the other hand very proud of how famous became their Island and thanks to Sappho becasue if she didn't live here, nobody would know nowadays where this f**cking island would be !
I mean, in fact in german "a pariser" (basically a people living in Paris) is a condom, and none of parisian did into court for that. I mean the inhabitants (who are quite a few (and "fewest" as compared to homosexual lesbians all around the world) can easily make disappear the confusion, they can say "hello i'm from lesbo island")

About the name, i really don't know if it is something you own like a marchendise, i know there are anglo-saxon phylosophical tendancies about the "fabric of language", but i personnaly do not consider my name as a propriety in the contrary of the law of brand. But it is a quite interesting question, do we exist without our name, is our name our self ?

Anyway maybe if the lesbo island wins, i guess the writters room will find another word to replace the "L" word lol

I got to think on this one.

I got to think on this one.

But, I'm thinking that the term, Lesbian, is a multi language term - like 'OK'...but I'm not sure - I just think that it's far more then just a term that Americans use - it's really global.

And just a hint, Americans call lesbians...a lesbo, when they are not really liking them. People have been put down just from someone saying, "what a lesbo". And the fact that the term Lesbo and Lesbian...was used as a naming after an Island...

It'd be like a condom company marketing, globally, 'Pariser'...and the name for a condom would ultimately, globally, be pariser, and the term condom would be no more...

and the condom company would use the term deriving from Paris, because they are fuckheads. ***note, I do not believe people from Paris are fuckheads***

It would be offensive to a lot of Parisers, if the name was meaning they were fuckheads...and fuckheads came from Paris.

Lots of jokes, and humor (good and bad), use the Ilse of Lesbos being associated with lesbianism and it's origin. The island is mocked based on an identity it does not really have.

maybe another way to put it would be like...identity, uhh - what if the world thrust upon you as being the queen of straightness...and you do not want the identity of being straight, but you're own identity...that you try to emulate (associate) with your name. In a way, it's almost discriminatory that the island is being looked upon as an identity that it does not relate to.

Just as we have the right to fight for our identity (not just in terms, but more so in meaning behind the terms), so do they.

maybe the writer's could use "the L word" :P

Anyway, I am dead tired, and need sleep - I was just fooling around tonight in photoshop, and looky here, the sun just came up *sigh*...again. It always does that to me :P

I will wait for you

rovermom :)

Life is a 3D puzzle and everyone has a piece!

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you know i wouldn't mind as

you know i wouldn't mind as "a pariser" from Paris taht the word mean a condom on market : i explicitly don't look like a condom, no chance to make confusion beetwen,me , my fuckhead and a preservativ !Lol

But you now, the mayor decided to make the name of Paris as a depositit brand name and now you have to pay to use it and i you get an URL with paris inside it will be difficult to avoid a trial from the town. I do not agree with this position and the strengh of branding law in comparaison to intellectual rights.

There is a song in french from Boris Vian, about a man called "Ducon", and the man is very very sad, because it means litteraly "from cunt" and more elaborated " bastard" or "mornon " as i read on another trail here. But do you think that all women shall league to take the afair into justice and especially everypeople named with "con" inside their name, just because, the firts meaning of the word "con" (derived from ancient french "conin"= rabbit) is the genitory apparel of female and not a name or en insulting word ? The word had totally been deprecated during time (but it is not innocent) but even if it is rare, can also bee the family name of some people (
who illegaly own something that is the humanity treasure).

In french, gay is quite specific for men. For women we have "lesbian" (lesbienne) no decline into lesbo, "homo"-(homosexuelle if you want a specific way for female), and more slangish, "goudou", "gouine". More elaborated term such as "tribad(e)" isn't quite used anymore.

Maybe the greek island inhabitants could be "L. islander" ;-)

I can understand some part of your argumentation, but in fact it remain always the act that "lesbian" is not a bad word so what's the trouble if the island is associated with something only related with love and sex (and drama i must admitt lol, but Sappho was a leaving drama theater and that's why she get trough the century up to us). The fact is if you scrutinize who is behind the pleague, it is extrem wing people, because other said it's quite ridiculous to go into court to defend the name of "lesbian" agaisnt gay women.

For men, we could invent "mikonian" because of Mikonos, or "sitjian" or "dinahshorian" on another hand (hoping all the Dinah are not going to proceed a trial)

In fact, but it is a very personal point of view i do not "defend" my identity, there is no place to take, i mean i can not be defined as a town with ramparts and fortification.( It's a little bit like what is described by J.Derrida as "khora" about Socrates, not the place to developp, but i feel it right). But the fact is also i have a quite special relation with my name, many times people asked me i my name is not a pseudonyme, so now i consider my "real" name as a "pseudoname" ;-)

Anyway have a good sleep up to Lesbo Island with dreams

Tilonians

would be more appropriate than Mikonians, because the Mayor of Tilos celebrated a gay wedding there.

By the way, Marywriter opened a debate on that subject, on her blog.

Thanks for the link dear not

Thanks for the link dear not true lesbiite !

author

You go girls!

I've got to think on this one too. So many ways to read it. I'd like to know who on the Isle of Lesbos is leading the debate. Anyone planning a trip there this summer?

I've always wondered about this!

Hopefully someone can come up with an answer to satisfy our curiosity...

******
"Change is created by those whose imaginations are bigger than their circumstances." Unknown

Sabrina... I'm sorry we

Sabrina...

I'm sorry we hijacked your blog. But it really is an interesting debate...and blog worthy. I wish I could go, but my travel plans is for San Diego, for 2 weeks. :D

rovermom :)

Life is a 3D puzzle and everyone has a piece!

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I go to Greece next summer, everywhere EXCEPT Lesbos

I boycott Lesbos to protest against this homophob attack.

Na!

Boycotting is bad coz there

Boycotting is bad coz there are some investors there that have nothing to do with those we-want-the-name-for-ourselves Lesbians. The funny thing is that in Lesbos there are lesbian (homosexual) investors, because Lesbos is quite a meeting place for lesbians...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
And if my present deeds are foolish in thy sight, it may be that a foolish judge arraigns my folly.

yes tell us more...

on the blog.
(boycott was a joke).
;o)

author

Two Girls and...

We had an amazing time shooting that film and being a part of it was important in so many ways. It's great to know it's still being watched and enjoyed.

I'm looking forward to hearing some of your thoughts on "Good Catholic Girls" and your Hayley Mills thing!

Thanks for this news (it's

Thanks for this news (it's "religion" in the good sense of it = religere= make links) !

I think we watched it at the

I think we watched it at the same time, or at least 3 hours a part :P

I do enjoy that movie...

PS. I F I N A L L Y got a chance to watch But I'm a Cheerleader. It's on OnDemand. I watched it last night. Thumbs up!!!

rovermom :)

Life is a 3D puzzle and everyone has a piece!

NEW! OurChart Photo Assignment and My Blog

which mary?

your caption says Mary, but surely not Jesus's mom, as she's without Mother Mary's signature head covering. could it be Mary Magdalene, in her torn dress & wild hair? oh, but what's with the cat o'nine tails-wielding cherub? kinky. er, I mean, flagellant!

author

Good Eye!

It's The Assumption of Mary Magdalene, 1636 by Jusepe de Ribera(I should have included that). The conflation of the different Marys in the bible is fascinating and certainly the interpretations of Mother Mary and Mary Magdalene are a feminists delight. I concur with your flagellant-kinky observation. So having identified which Mary this is I'd say you're a "good Catholic girl".

I hate that religion always becomes such a sticky subject.

I have this childlike view that just can not comprehend how something based so deeply in the deepest aspects and aspirations of the human experience can not embrace the varied and colorful differences of that experience. We all fundamentally want the same things, and although differences of opinion are inevitable, why must religion be so stubbornly divisive? Why must one idea fit all?

I belive that churches unable to adapt to the realities of modern (i.e. more equal) life will find themselves less and less relevant and thereby less attended.

author

Separation of Church and State

I'm going to ditto your beautifully written 1st paragraph!

'Good Catholic Girls' ... ah, yes.

'Good Catholic Girls' ... ah, yes.
I was one.

They say once a Catholic always a Catholic. And in a way, I suppose I'll never escape the wonderful Catholic guilt cliche.

Generations of my ancestors were kept down because the church taught them to suffer was to be holy. The Vatican has an awful lot to answer for, as far as I'm concerned. Drenched in hypocrisy and blood-stained gold.

I am ever-hopeful the church will change it's archiac rules and allow priests to marry, women to be included, condoms to be promoted and will spread love and tolerance rather than shame 1and fear... but unfortunately, it's backwards the current idiot in the Pope's chair is going.

I do feel there has to be a change though... either a quiet revolution and modernism. Or floods of people will leave and the remaining core will be thrice as fundamentalist...

Tune in to find out!!!! lol

author

Catholic Activists

There is an amazing lineage of Catholic activists in the Church. Fighting for women's equality, gay inclusivity, human rights and more. Angela's(herself Catholic) book and analysis of the women(and men) putting themselves at great risk to express their belief in the teachings of Jesus was not only well researched but inspiring.

The Catholic Church's Very Foundation

I'm no authority on the church's history, but isn't it based upon a propaganda campaign that, at its inception, removed women from any kind of cultural/familial/tribal authority we would have had otherwise? Weren't indigenous peoples with matriarchal or matrilineal cultures systematically destroyed/repressed/enslaved for the sake of increasing the church's riches, power and governmental influence? And what about the Inquisition? Given this history, I don't expect the Catholic Church to act otherwise. Why would they change what's worked for them?

Why doesn't the Catholic church deal with war, poverty, capital punishment, homelessness and nuclear proliferation? Some "rogue" priests and nuns do. But, I think the answer to that question is that the Catholic church's biggest stakes are with countries/governments that rely on poverty, domination, colonization, fear and, in many cases, dictatorship to stay in power. If the church changed its ways, then it would literally lose currency in the process.

Having been an Episcopalian attending Catholic school for behavior problems (I was uppity at an early age), I noticed that hypocrisy was part of the curriculum. There's no way those kids were going to follow the rules outside of the watchful eye of a nun wielding a ruler. A nun is someone whose very identity is sexually dis-empowered, while their exterior was usually stern and sometimes downright mean. What did that teach kids with a Catholic education about women in power? And why would little Catholic girls want to grow up to be like that?
Lezbeth

author

Welcome back!

Great having your insightful comments Lezbeth. Lots to think about here. I'm off to the garden to get that lettuce planted. Back later.

it is not totally related to

it is not totally related to your post, but i read today that some conservativ inhabitants of Lesbos island (Iannis Axlopitas, and Dimitris Lambrou editor of a paganist and nationalist revue) , lead into justice court some homosexual and lesbian greek association "Olke" ( Greek Union of Gays and Lesbians) because of the scandalous and unbearable use of the term "lesbian" that should be reserve to the native of the island who live everyday in the shame of confusion to be taken for homosexual women ;-))
The décision of the court will be taken in a month, let's prepare us to have to ind another word for "lesbian" (it make me laugh even if this case show how narrow minded and homophobs are still some people !)Sainte Sappho pray for us !

Well, the term did derive

Well, the term did derive from the name of the Island of Lesbos, and those inhabitants are the real Lesbians. And being which it was Sappho's homosexual actions that we are basing the female homosexual action upon...and looking to her as being part of our sexual identity name...Sapphian should be our name, or sort of - which ever...

But the true Lesbians of the Isle of Lesbos have that right to seek a new alternative for the current situation.

I mean I always thought that gay = homosexual and it wasn't just the male equivalent of the sexual act - or was this 'lesbian' name formed as a way to protect women's rights in not being prosecuted - since male (or gay) homosexuality was written as being a sin (man laying with man) - consecrating a difference between male homosexuality and female homosexuality...just in case? Or was it adopted by straight men, so their thoughts and fantasies weren't a sin?

I think we only started using that, really adopting it, sometime during the last century.

In the early 1900's, the sexual term went from being an adjective to being a noun.

I mean I can come out and say, "hey, I'm gay" or "hey, I'm lesbian"...guys don't have that choice...and it just brings me back to the idea of non-association, just so women on women, lesbian sex, is more widely accepted.

rovermom :)

Life is a 3D puzzle and everyone has a piece!

NEW! OurChart Photo Assignment and My Blog