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Cougars Revisited

The cover of this month’s Advocate magazine is called "Silver Foxes" and is about gay men going grey. There is a companion feature on the inside about lesbian cougars called “Predator and Prey” by Tricia Romano. There are a couple of quotes from yours truly that are not very flattering, I might add. But hell, this is what you get when you open your mouth and give an opinion.

Almost a year ago I wrote about being a cougar. It seemed funny at the time; now it's kind of a stigma I’m battling. I started dating a 37-year-old. Ooops did I say dating? Yikes. I’m seeing, umm, having a whatever with an age-appropriate (as it's called ) woman. She keeps harping on the fact that I like younger women. For the record, I like women. A very small percent of them happen to have been younger. That detail just happens to stand out.

The one thing I appreciate in Romano's article is that she points out the stigma women face in age disparity, something men (including gay men) don’t. I’ll add to that, that women battle stigmas of all kinds: age, weight, shape, fashion and the list goes on and on and on.

I used to date a women who had double-D cups. She would tell me stories constantly about how people — gay, straight, men and women would talk to her chest. This would occur in professional situations as well as social ones. Her boobs were a magnet that people couldn’t keep their eyes off. And it wasn’t like she was always rocking cleavage. In fact, she was often covered up.

When we would go out, people would stare at us. I couldn’t figure out if people were staring at her boobs, the fact that she was a pretty young thing and I was obviously an older woman, or the fact that we were lesbians, or that I was of indeterminate gender and race.

I often find people staring at me in the streets. Strangers often can’t figure out my gender or race. Once coming out of the women’s bathroom at the Brooklyn courthouse where I was on jury duty this dude said to me: “Hey, what are you doing?!? That’s the women’s room.”

So this 37-year-old I’m dating is very androgynous and very hot — tall, lean and boyish at times. I’ve noticed we get looks a lot, but it's mainly from men trying to figure out her gender. This weekend a gay boy was clearly eyeing her up and down with an “I wanna f*ck you" look. She told me she got propositioned at the deli the week before, until the dude figured out she was female.

A very smart college senior getting a women’s studies degree likes to remind me that gender is performative. I like that idea so much because, for that matter, everything is performative, including age and race. So, if appearance is all performative, I suppose it’s just a matter of the audience getting used to it.

44 Comments

Hmmmmm....

I just started dating someone who is 10 years younger than I am. It's been a good thing! :)

Okay

I'm probably older than most of you lovely ladies..several years I dated a woman (lawyer) 18 years younger than me. I was 40..she was whatever! She purse me like I was a thoroughbred horse..Of course, I finally acquiesced, couldn't help myself, she was smart and adorable. I think I was attracted to her because of her intellligence and sincereity. For a young person, she was rather "old" in many ways..She was extremly romantic and was rather a home body. For me, I think she was attracted to me because, yes, I am very sure of myself, smart and successful., but more than this, I was unselfish with her. I gave her what she wanted..lots of attention. She gave me everything I wanted as well, and we had grrreeaaat sex! In the end, and there were several ends, we split up....I ended it,and with much remorse. Guess what, she is with another older woman!! Who da thunk it?

Yes, I don't think it really matters when it comes to matters of the heart..if two people have the same values and common interests then these 2 people can learn a lot from each other, and have a successful and happy relationship...look at: Annette Benning & Warren Beatty; Carole Lombard and Clark Gable, Marilyn Monroe & Arthur Miller (hoever, I think Marilyn was looking for a father images), Demi & Ashton, Joe and Mary, Suzanne & Betty!!! Joking.

I agree with Bilderbabe, :stigma is just bullshit".

that's

what i'm banking on.... the demi / ashton thing.... only we are both dorks. funny, attractive, intelligent, creative dorks with a lot in common and major amounts of chemistry :)

good post :)

Hmmmnn...

But what do you call a young woman hunting for cougars?

Lets say 18-ish looking for 40 & above?

(Hehehe shameless self promotion. >,<)

Cougars come & get me! *,*

But then again, do you still count as prey if you want to be hunted? o_o

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If it were possible for me to love you, I would love you for forever.

: )

I have a thing for older women as well.
I'm in my early 20's and crushing hard on my boss who's almost 40..

cougars come & get me

i'd love to come n get u. let's say 49ish athletic blonde hair blue eyes....does it really matter who is the hunter and who is the hunted when everyone gets what they want?????????

God

I love ourchart >,<

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If it were possible for me to love you, I would love you for forever.

You might check your states

You might check your states pedophilia laws to answer that.

~~~~~~~~~~~
Sign up for the Obama Action Wire and keep fighting right-wing smears!

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Don't drink the Koolaid!

-_-

I'm young, not under-age -_-

But I'll check it anyways ^_^

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If it were possible for me to love you, I would love you for forever.

on cougars

i, too, was quoted in that article, and i, too, sound like a blithering idiot. although you didn't sound so idiotic as much as you did lecherous, which is a bit better i think.
love,
katie

author

Damn it

Liederman! we fell into a media trap!

so what do you call the

so what do you call the cougars who are actually the prey?
i'm 26 and would MUCH rather be with an older woman...so i'm usually the predator and they are really the prey... do the unsuspecting lovely older women really count as cougars then?

i do always wonder

i do always wonder when i see older and younger groups of two now, are they together or related? then of course i sing that stupid song "Stacey's Mom".
but I always was curious how the age gap played out and if it is ever funny in a quirky, awkward, this-would-be-depressing-in-another-light way; do the couples ever acknowledge society in private by feeling weird calling each other "baby" or "daddy", has the younger accidentally called the older a parents name before or vis versa, do the younger persons' parents ever meet with the older person and remember playing on the same sports teams in high school or even having been on the rival team or beat up by the older person.
Or maybe I just watch too much bad television

raaaar

Hmm. I think there's as much responsibility for performativity as an "audience member" as there is as a "performer." In other words, gender is in the eye of the beholder as much as in the beheld.

I used to have an over-30-only rule and then I dated a 37-year-old who had daddy issues the size of the Grand Canyon...she was way, way less mature than the teenager with whom I'd liaised earlier that year, who was, actually, pretty mature, no comparisons needed. I don't know what to think anymore.

Not only is gender a performance,

the performance evolves as fashion evolves. Just look at boys fashion 10 years ago and now, and you'll see the baggy clothes has turned to tight pants, tight shirts, and long hair. Then notice how the GLBT movement is hot right now (thank you lobbyists) and how fashionable it is to "kiss a girl." Katie Perry is singing the anthem right now and charting in the top ten. When Jill Sobule came out with "I kissed a Girl," it was only popular in the niche and alternative sectors and gay marriage had a ways to go.
Now that gender fashion has become more androgynous, shopping is sooo much easier for me and more 'straight' people, boys and girls, check me out more than the number of queers i know even exist. All I know is, I like girls, I'm a big homo, and we create culture and fashion. So lets keep working it.
www.shaevoyeur.com
Queer culture, media, and travel blog.

Yay!

I agree with all of it.

Pigeon Holing People

For whatever reason, it seems to be human nature to categorize people. One week you are dating someone 10 years younger and you are a cougar. The next week you date someone 10 years older and you are looking for a "Daddy"! On occasion you may be dating someone your own age and then, of course you are age appropriate and supposedly more "normal" (what a disgusting word!!)

There are many reasons we are attracted to whomever we are attracted to; some healthy, some not. Many different kinds of men and women of different size, shape, age and sexual preference, have paid attention to my 6foot height, my DD bra size, long blonde hair and voluptuous (sometimes overly voluptuous-is that a nice way of saying fat?) figure.

Mostly, that attention came in the form of them wanting to fuck me, but not caring who I really am. Oh well, we all have our own crosses to bear.

If you are truly one of the fortunate to find someone who truly loves you for who you are, fuck all the labels and just try and be happy!!!

Speaking of Daddies

I saw one of those around these parts last week.Stood out like a white Buffalo atop a hillside,looking out over the prarie lol.Hadn't seen one in years.I thought they were either all dead or on locked down.

~~~~~~~~~~~
Sign up for the Obama Action Wire and keep fighting right-wing smears!

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Don't drink the Koolaid!

I used to dream of one day being a cougar

But as it happened out, I just turned into an old bear.

Oh well! Such is life!

There's a thin line...

Funny

Meffle, that made me laugh. :-)

Yes indeed to cougars - pumas - lions - tigers

whatever the heck feline (ew, like the sound of that) you want to call us! God bless younger women!

Nothing but love

Tex

God Bless the PUMA!!!!! ;)

BUBBA LOVE
LAKE

author

lions, tigers, and pumas

oh my...

Cougar Crushes

There’s nothing more alluring than an older woman. Maybe it’s the way in which she moves with ease, comfortable inside her own skin. She’s sure of herself, a quiet confidence that follows her everywhere. She’s hard to shake, hard to read. Handles most things with finesse. She says what’s on her mind and means what she says. She’s direct and honest, expecting the same. – no bullshit, no games. She loathes “yes men” and liars that much worse. She can carry on an intelligent conversation more than thirty seconds. She’s witty with a wicked sense of humor. She has the biggest heart you’d ever see, if you were ever lucky enough to get that close, but hides it extremely well.

Maybe all of the above. Maybe it’s just the type of personality I’m attracted to. Maybe it’s her legs or at least how she looks in those perfectly ironed dress slacks. Whatever it is, I’m sold – hook, line, sinker.

That’s me with cougar crushes. It’s intimidating. At the same time, absolutely erotic every time we “run into” each other at the office. Wish I could say this was a one off b/c I have so much more control with my own age group. However, it appears to be the norm.

For me, women just get better with age.

Peace & Love,
P~

Hi, Cad!

I'm Tex!

Nothing but love

Tex

I think I'd be terrifed...

...to date an older women, for the simple reason that I might get the dreaded "Oh, is this your daughter??" comment. Implied incest is not hot.
Although, I suppose that would be a factor playing into stigma as well...

Cougar with DD who still gets called "sir"

I sure don't know how my performance differs in the situation, but some people's (mostly men's) eyes get plastered to my breasts while others call me "sir." And I've been told "this is the women's restroom" on more than one occasion. It can all happen in the same day. I must be a pretty damn versatile performer.
Lezbeth

Step away from the Women Studies student

and her oversimplified, Butlerian ideas about performativity!

In other words: instead of thinking about the "other" or "audience", which is necessitated by Butler's Hegelian-derivative concept of "performativity," think about the fashioning of the self not as a kind of performativity that requires an other, but instead think of the self as a piece of art. Understood as art, the body has the capacity to augment and transform itself (with fleshy and non-fleshy materials). One "lives" (in the Nietzschean sense) when one makes art of oneself and *for* oneself.

since when

has art not required an audience?

Please re-read the posts

Hi Erin,

Please re-read Grace's original post and then my first one, because I think you're confusing the various strands of discourse at work here. The issue that Grace raises, for me, at the end of her post is one of valuation via the concept of performativity. Your comment, "since when has art not required an audience," speaks to perception via, implicitly, the concept of performativity (actually, I think you're saying that art would not exist without an audience).

Of course, if I were a strict Deleuzian, my answer would be that art, as a field of affects and percepts, exists regardless of being perceived by an other. It is, in fact, the one who perceives [in general, just 'perceives'] that creates the frame in which those sensations are solidified -- as an "object," as art. (I spent hours on end debating this theory of D's the other day ..... so not even I'm entirely sold on it, yet.)

Re your Wilde quote: grand-daddy Gertrude Stein, I think, best exhibits the anxieties of producing for mass appeal, and feeling the imperative to do so, in her Lectures in America.

ZT

stranded

i'm famous for my inability to untangle strands. i'm a bit monolithic in my thinking. cyclopian. i'm sure i read Deleuze at some point in French which may or may not be why i can't remember him it was all so long ago & far away. thanks for bringing it back sort of.
i get that art's in the mind of the beholder, and maybe rembrandt did end up painting for himself & van gogh? who knows who he was painting for. maybe it was god or the god within. and those are only the Dutch Masters!
you seem to contradict yourself in your par re Deleuze, or you're having your perceiver-as-artist & eating it too by saying art exists whether it's perceived or not.
for a theater person, it's hard to imagine ANYTHING existing without an audience. the last time i performed in public, at the end of the rehearsal period, which i'd enjoyed & been tormented by, i didn't understand WHY we needed an audience. it took a few performances for me to REMEMBER viscerally the transformative power of being seen. then of course, ham that i am, i couldn't get enough of 'em. bless their hearts.

author

i was never

fond of the concept of art for art sake.

 

and what sake is that,

per favore?

art as a means of creation, of creating the new, seems pretty significant, no?

or should art have some tepid, trite, or overused 'politically correct' meaning behind it?

author

"art for arts sake"

art In and of itself, art as being totally self referential.

modernisms contribution to the philosophy of art — devoid of communication of anything other than its own form.

 

mr art for art's sake

oscar wasn't an empty formalist but he did believe in beauty, its effect on the soul, and therefore employed himself in the making of beautiful objects. not "merely" beautiful but highly functional. "the importance of being earnest", not only the gayest play, is one of the greatest comedies. it has a lot to say about society, but in its own unique style. that's the art for whose sake it was written.

In his 1891 essay "The Soul of Man Under Socialism", Oscar Wilde wrote:

"A work of art is the unique result of a unique temperament. Its beauty comes from the fact that the author is what he is. It has nothing to do with the fact that other people want what they want. Indeed, the moment that an artist takes notice of what other people want, and tries to supply the demand, he ceases to be an artist, and becomes a dull or an amusing craftsman, an honest or dishonest tradesman. He has no further claim to be considered as an artist."

this sort of argument is generally despised by americans, who believe what the demagogues tell them, but it's the only argument that protects the pursuit of art from the forces of base commercialism. to reject this argument is to reject art.

yes, yes,

my dear, i know what the phrase means and from whence it derives, but those silly modernists said things just to make their egos bigger.

Now, we turn to Deleuze -- whom you should read, being all artsy-fartsy and stuff.

For Deleuze, art is NOT representation. Art does not represent. Rather, art creates. Deleuze confronts modernists' accusations directly in a myriad of texts, but you should check out his chapter on art in 'What Is Philosophy?' Self-reference, in terms of art, needs to be understood in terms of creative potential. Art, as a bloc of sensations, presents the viewer with limitless potentialities to establish new connections and relations among anything and everything.

Modernists (here modern artists, both literary and visual) are known for constructing and working within structures, or frameworks -- they were pretty wound up in form/formalism, which meant that they had difficulties conceptualizing theories or methodologies of the new, of the non-formalist, non-quantitative, non-reductive.

I didn't fully appreciate art's capabilities until reading Deleuze.

ZT

author

thank you for sudden

enlightenment oh professor.
I will look into Deleuze

:) 

Yowsa

Bulter
Hegel
Nietzche

Did I just go to philosophy class? ;-)

back atcha, cougar-minnie

ditto

"So, if appearance is all

"So, if appearance is all performative, I suppose it’s just a matter of the audience getting used to it."

yes! and that's why it's great to wear what might stigmatize you with pride. obviously there's nothing wrong with an older woman being with a younger woman. stigma is just bullshit social shame we internalize that functions to keep power structures in place! i.e patriarchy!!! uh! i loovveee flaunting stigma fabulously and fearlessly. it really fucks with people in the best of ways.

Thank you for this post!

author

are you claiming authorship

for this qoute?

:) 

more like partnership with

more like partnership with this quote ;D in other words, word to your mother

Minnie Cougar

Hmmmm, I'm 54 and J.D. Disalvatore (quoted in the companion piece) is 42, so I could be her cougar. Roar.

author

umm

you are a Big cougar :)